Non-fiction / An essay in answer to the question: Plato assumes that we need a founding myth to secure the commitment of the populace to the political system. Is it true that we can’t handle the truth that there is no absolute foundation for a political system? (Analysis)

        Are we in this day and age afraid of instability? Or do we embrace it? Is it true that there is no stability? Or is it rather a fact that things – if looked at in the right way, can show some solid foundation, and that the word myth, when attached to thinkers like Plato is nonsense, because they have really found the truth? In a sense, whatever the answers to these questions are, the words of people like Plato become the foundations of the society they build, which builds itself into the minds of the people. Plato’s myth, the noble lie, is the most emblematic of this. It is an idea that has many different implications past just the notion of foundations of a system, notions which look into the nature of human concepts and their relation to the universe, and another more important one that may show a reaction to instability is fear - and that this is quite possibly the origin of all of Plato’s metaphysics, but not the foundation of our current system of democracy.

            But first, we must look at what the noble lie really is. The noble lie is what will be used on the quest that Plato embarks on to create a class of people who have the state as “the rule of their lives” (20). This is the Platonic system of education. He focuses the energies of the individuals, or guardians, away from themselves and focuses their minds on the ruling of a populace. How does he do this? He sets up a situation that puts a set of people through numerous and rigorous tests throughout rough circumstances, to train them in conviction and honor towards the state. This, at first seems fine – putting the guardians in their natural habitats and having them grow stronger while dealing with the world around them. But this, is not the case. While engaged in these trials, it is actually told to them that it wasn’t the Platonists who had put them through these tasks, but rather the earth itself. This noble lie will go on to set up the system of the “perfect state”, allotting the citizens to their respective classes based on their original relation to the Platonic test. Now we know why philosophers for ages since have been concerned with the question, “What is truth”.

But to return, we can see in this place that Plato’s order is something that has to be created, not something that already exists and that we have the ability to just find out. Plato himself is partaking in the creation of a form, society. This shows there is a lack of order that Plato is making up for and creating. This inherint instability is frightening. I believe that in today’s society as well as in Plato’s time there has always been a reaction against it and a creation of order. Plato may have been the one of the first thinkers to have embodied this idea

The other thing, along with the previous idea, is that Plato’s order will only temporarily create this kind of order.  This may be a more important issue. As we see in the republic there is a necessary slippery slope after the state is created. Once the Platonic state is set up – Plato hopes everyone will live in their class and do their duties, but Plato, even with his keen observational skills, cannot be the ultimate judge of everyone. As people change, so do their morals. They will start to mix the classes and destroy the previously established order. That beast of inner change will end up rising in somebody in the guardian class, and they will explore the life of a bronze. That wish to aspire that was not present earlier in the bronze or silver class will rise and cause them to chase after the dreams of the guardian system, pursuing the search of philosophy. That is why the system will break up, and that is the reason for fear in instability. It leads to chaos or, “un”knowledge, which as we see, may just be the natural way of things. It is like molding a statue out of clay and then leaving it to the natural world. It will come against forces, rain, wind, and heat that will change it. It will mold to the stimulus it comes across. And the path the weather takes, as far as we know, cannot be controlled - just like the minds and plans of the citizens in the state, or, the "stately weather".

To return again to the original idea, that fear of instability is part of political structure, we will see that this may be true, and that modern democracy might have this still, but modern day democracy has dealt with this fear in a different way. Instead of solidifying the citizens to one unbreakable tying class system, it allows for the changing of classes – although it is not an easy process. We must go to school and become educated. Our parents are allowed to work to give us the money to rise out of the lower class and into the higher realms of society. Class change is possible – it is even welcomed when those who have the right ideas are available. We have moved away from that purely aristocratic society that Plato set up, one based on "original power", but not totally. There is still that type of education available that Plato set up for his guardians, now only tinged with an oligarchical way to get to it. Those who have the wealth have access to the type of training a guardian would receive are allowed to work for it. In all, it seems the power is not fully chosen by the powerful, but by the oligarchical system of power as well, ie: money = power. That first step down from Plato’s highest point of aristocracy to oligarchy has truly affected the world like Plato thought it would. But again, we in this modern day are not so in fear of change as were Plato and his contemporaries were then. We allow it, and we are more comfortable in working towards it. Even most love stories from our day have had this central theme. Breaking out of what was originally established, shooting for the ability to love out of one's class - having the climax of the story as the character's realization of how this can be accomplished!

What about an opposition to our theory? An opposition might say that this is not the case. Maybe Plato’s insight was right, and he did find a true basis for a political system, not just some myth. Maybe we just needed him to tell it to us like a story so that people could understand it, which he definetly did when telling the citizens that the earth raised them instead of him. Does the grandfather telling his life story through a bird's eye, or a novelist telling his life in snippets through a narrator change the essence of the central idea? I believe if you look at it the right way, then no. In today’s society one cannot just become a neurosurgeon if his parents have the money. He, like in Plato’s time, has some “golden” qualities in him. People may be born with inborn talents and might have different inherint duties because of their natural "fate"?

Plato’s theory might have some merit, we can’t discredit that, but what we can say is that Plato was not the utmost judge. Plato did not have a "bird's eye view on time. Golden qualities may stay dormant in someone until their later years, people may change, events can bring out the "better", or "worse" in somebody, and the world – does change. In a quote I could not find by Leslie Silko in her novel, Ceremony stated that “The old do not understand the concept of change, even if it right in front of their eyes, in the growing old of people or the decay of the skin on the medicine rattle.” Those who try to solidify the state of the world and the state of men like Plato are the ones in fear of change. In fear of an instable world, a confusing world. But today, we are coming closer to the knowledge that there is a different type of doctrine, and that we grow better when we are confronted with confusion, only to overcome it. If we keep our eyes on the present we can see that these forms do change, that the trees and earth that once protected us are now calling out in a struggle. Democracy and environmentalism are the heralds of this want for change – this want to recognize the instabilities and move with them, not solidify our minds to a point in time and forget what is happening right in front of us in the present. So to those who are afraid I say, I disagree, and that we are only just now learning to run with it.

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cewech avatar Random Review

October 12, 2008

cewech

REVIEW QUALITY: 100.0%(1 vote ) personal info reviewer stats
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i think what plato was getting at by theorizing an aristocracy of talent was that timelessly, people with true talent and insight are those who have qualities that could bring them to the top of the food chain so to speak, but the way they use that talent, or throw it away determines their place in society. in other words, they have more freedom to choose, but they are still subject to the earth, whatever condition they may be born in. if they are born in a nation that fosters their abilities and facilitates their search for things that bring them joy, all the more their debt to said nation and their responsibility to maintain it and improve it. though a man of the bronze may pursue philosophy with great zeal, he will not ascend to the empyrean heights as one of golden quality with the same level of motivation. imo, a bronze who seeks understanding in earnest is better than a gold who seeks knowledge for personal gain. but, the best situation for a political system is in our time, as in plato’s time, run by those who know what theyre about. think about all the things mccain has said about taking advice from experts. not all experts are to be trusted, however, which is why plato specified that another of the golden qualities was the contempt of material gain, but the use of wealth for the good of the nation. in other words, money and power are best in the hands of those who place higher value on the treasures of truth and understanding because they have no will to abuse that power because they have nothing to gain by doing so, yet they have the wisdom and the will to use it for good because of their knowledge of truth. this is cyclical and self-validating. also, the phrase ‘the noble lie’ is one of the most notorious mistranslations of this idea. people have often tried to mend this, but unfortunately as in most of these situations, the first label tends to stick the best. few realize it, but our nation, just like all nations in the past has a mythology as well. ours is a secular mythology which touts the virtues of man. man is deified in our mythology, because one would be hard pressed to find a real person that can match the abilities of action stars and tv detectives. in other words, divine qualities are portrayed under the guise of a human character like hercules, like sisyphus, etc etc. its an embellishment of true human qualities and i find that with all flaws considered, the larger picture is more beautiful for them. the truth may not be the commonly accepted ideal, but i find it beautiful the way it is. i have argued with this idea often using platos own criteria of truth. although platos own viewpoint is limited, the fact that his philosophy has endured throughout centuries is testament enough to his wisdom and vision. in fact, if you look carefully, you can find a counterpart for every one of the social phenomena he pointed out in 600 BC athens in our own time. the puppeteers are the same, but the puppets have changed. do you remember what led to the disintegration of democracy into anarchy? the clamor of a spoiled public for freedoms they believe they are entitled to which do no good for them individually and lead to the collapse of the state… then they respond by clamping down, electing a dictator who becomes a tyrant. the way things are going, i could see how every one of these things may yet come to pass in america in days to come, but its not a foregone conclusion. in order to weather the fluctuations of nature, we also must learn to fluctuate and we have tools that ancient philosophers could never have accounted for (ie: urbis.com.) the qualities of a man come out regardless of his surroundings. in other words, a man of gold will still shine (though perhaps not with the same intensity) within the bronze class as he would in the gold, but an ignorant man of low moral standing will still show himself as a boor even if he is elevated to the highest eschelon. ... point taken in the neurosurgeon line. youre right in that no single man can be treated as absolute judge, but we must still follow platos advice in becoming educated if we are to take even his words for what theyre worth and in so doing attain the understanding of what he was trying to say. the brighter the light, the darker the shadow… and these days as in all days past and all to come, you and i subject as much to hope as to fear. i wrote my first short story recently which is more of a metaphysical discourse told through the story of an individual. i incorporated alot of quasi-platonic ideas (though often metaphorically) throughout and i would be curious to see whether someone familiar with plato would pick up on them. glad you brought this up. i think everyone should read old books : P.

AnnEnglish avatar General Stranger

October 12, 2008

AnnEnglish

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AnnEnglish reviewed Version 6 - Read 17% of the Item

Please do not be discouraged that I read only short part of your essay.  My comments are meant to be helpful. My comments follow quotations from your work and are flagged with *

Are we in this day and age afraid of instability? Or do we embrace it?


  • I am prejudiced against the “sociological ‘we’”.  In a pluralist society I think that any sentence beginning “We …” is likely to mislead.  I suggest you avoid it.

Is it true …  Or is it rather a fact …


  • Instead of “is it rather a fact” I think you mean “is it (comma), rather, [meaning “instead”], (comma) a fact …”  Avoid elegant variations which confuse me.  Try simplicity.  ”Is it true that AAA?  Or is it true, instead, that BBB?”

that things – if looked at in the right way, can


  • This makes sense to me only if there is another dash after “way”.  Dashes don’t have to be in pairs.  However, parenthetical clauses do need either two parentheses or two dashes.


  • The grammar of the fourth question gets more convoluted, but I shan’t comment on it for a reason I give below.

In a sense, whatever the answers to these questions are, the words of people like Plato become …


  • Approximately here, I realised that you were not going to answer the questions.  So I needn’t have bothered trying to understand the fourth question.

the society they build, which builds itself into the minds of the people.



  • I think you mean “the words … which build themselves”.  All other possibilities (“the society they build, which builds itself”, or “the foundations, which build themselves”) make even less sense.  Because the verb is singular, I suspect that you had the word “myth” in there somewhere, but took it out so that you could define it later.

Plato’s myth, the noble lie, is the most emblematic of this.



  • Emblematic of what?  The words?  Say “of those words.”  Emblematic doesn’t seem right. Typical?  Representative? “Best model?”  Best-known example?  Avoid using adjectives as abstract nouns.

It is an idea that has many different implications


  • This is probably true, but meaningless until you have explained what you are talking about.  I shall expand this comment below.

past just the notion of foundations of a system, notions which look into the nature of human concepts and their relation to the universe, and another more important one


  • More important what?  Notion?  Since a concept is a notion, how can notions look into concepts?

I realise that it is possible to get a degree in philosophy by defining words in ways which suit your purpose.  Philosophers who write like that may do well, but I think that they do not meet your criteria above, the first one of which was clarity.

Try reading Bertrand Russell.

Good luck.  I am not criticising your understanding, only your English.

Kind regards
Ann

Hey!  I flagged all my comments with asterisks and the flags disappeared!  Sorry.

Curtastrophe avatar General Stranger

October 10, 2008

Curtastrophe

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Curtastrophe reviewed Version 6 - Read 100% of the Item

The title: It isn’t a title. The first sentence is more of your thesis statement. And the second . . . I’d be wary about putting any kind of question in the title of an academic paper. IMO, it makes the piece look weak. Also, “Is it true that we can’t handle the truth…” Is there a better phrase for this? On reading the last half of that sentence, my mind sees Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men screaming, “You can’t handle the truth!”

Opening sentences, again, I’d scrap the questions. The opening of the paper should appeal to people’s general sensibilities and not pose questions that they could easily answer “yes” or “no” and then chuck to the side. Try to open with Plato’s idea of the myth and incorporate them into a modern connotation with which people can identify.

This inherint instability / inherent

“I believe that in today’s society…” I’d cut the author’s intrusion. Same here, “I believe if you look at it the right…”

”...is a necessary slippery slope…” Cliche. Scrap it or suffer the professor’s red pen.

“What about an opposition to our theory?” No, the reader is not part of your constituency. It’s not “our”. Try “the”.

“in her novel, Ceremony stated…” You want to underline titles.

“Democracy and environmentalism…” I’m pretty sure that Environmentalism should be capitalized. Same goes for when you refer to the State or the Republic. (I think)

Not a bad essay, but the beginning and closing paragraphs could be reworked to focus more on what you’re trying to say. And in some ways, they should mirror each other which I don’t feel they do here.

-Curt

martykate avatar General Stranger

October 10, 2008

martykate

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For those who have not read Plato, more explanation of the terms he uses, such as “bronze” or “silver” would be helpful.

You might have covered a little more the difference between society and its citizens and our society in Plato’s time to explain how we perceive differently and why.  But you wouldn’t need to go into this a lot as you did touch on it.

Get rid of the hyphens that you used.  They really aren’t appropriate to the sentences you’ve used them in and interrupt rather than emphasize the points you are making.

I’m temptped to go into a discussion here on Plato, but I’ll stop.  This was refreshing!

oknapp avatar General Stranger

October 02, 2008

oknapp Prolific-icon-medium

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oknapp reviewed Version 6 - Read 100% of the Item

Instability in what? Life in general? This is pretty broad. many things could be deemed unstable.

It is an idea that has many different implications past just the…from here on is one long run-on. Define “It”

Are people in this day and age afraid of instablity, what i am referring to is????. You must define what you mean. I write these papers on a weekly basis.
Do people in general embrace the mundance aspects in life and fear change?   This seems to be an age-old question,one of which Plato wrestled with….

This is philosophy, Therefore, you could be as right as Plato. There is no right or wrong answer, here. I wouldn’t want to take on Plato. I admire your moxy.

What you are debating here is the Noble Truth, and whether it exists or not. You are saying that Plato lied to the people as to the circumstance of their trials or test, therefore the tests results are wrong because they were done under false pretenses. Or in  predetermined conditions. Good point!
Page two at the bottem presents some very good evidence. You are becomming clearer in your reasoning though you start out a little rocky.
necessary slippery slope after. Watch out for cliches!
Good anaology at the top of page 3

You have answered your own question: No, we are not afraid of instablity, at least for the majority; most americans embrace change. Also, life is not neatly packaged and there are two many groups to catergorize and try to predict. We are all different and very unpredictable.
You hit it right when you said that Plato’s world was very different. Fear was a big factor for them because most was unknown about the universe. Overall, your paper answers alot of questions;however, it is choppy in places, meaning you have the run-on sentence which i referred ot above.  With that said, i understood it and you did restate your thesis near the end. I do think you could have flushed it out a bit and named some other reasons that we today think differently than Plato. You need to go to the introduction and make your thesis plainer.  Good luck with it, Sandi

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